In this lesson
David Leisner discusses the thinking behind his book Playing with Ease and the experience of turning many years of teaching into words, photographs and demonstrations. Simon Powis, who contributed photography to the book, joins him in examining how physical work and musical intention interact.
The interview includes Leisner’s personal account of a playing injury and recovery. These notes focus on his educational approach and practice ideas; his personal experience is not a diagnosis or a treatment plan for another player.
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Originally published in 2018. These listening notes draw on the recorded conversation. Roles, projects, releases and event announcements refer to the time of recording. Practical reflections are suggested applications, not additional quotations from the guest.
Explore the conversation
Use these approximate timestamps to jump to a topic in the recording.
- 13:55 — Teaching starts with the individual in front of you
- 22:26 — Ease should support expressive playing
- 26:55 — Writing a teaching book requires unusual precision
- 45:24 — Begin with a musical image before solving every detail
- 49:12 — Analysis becomes useful when it answers a specific problem
- 46:50 — Return to the musical idea after the technical work
Teaching starts with the individual in front of you
“Well, of course, it’s always an individual matter.”
— David Leisner, 15:27
Leisner describes listening closely to a student and observing what changes when the sound becomes less free. The starting point varies from one person to another. A useful observation has to connect with the particular player, movement and musical task.
Although much of his own development involved independent investigation, he does not present self-teaching as the best general route for students. The discussion recognises the value of regular instruction and of another person noticing what is difficult to observe in your own playing.
For a lesson, bring a short passage and explain what you experience when playing it. A precise example gives a teacher more to work with than a general wish to improve technique. It also makes it easier to tell whether a suggested change helps.
Ease should support expressive playing
The conversation asks whether attention to physical relaxation can diminish the emotional intensity of a performance. Leisner distinguishes the work of learning a more comfortable action from the later task of using it within expressive music.
He is interested in movements that allow the music to happen, rather than a fixed appearance of calm. A performer does not need to look motionless for a phrase to have freedom, and a visible gesture does not automatically tell us how a movement feels.
The useful musical question is what a change makes possible: a clearer line, a wider dynamic range or a phrase that flows more easily. Physical observation and listening can inform each other instead of becoming competing demands.
Writing a teaching book requires unusual precision
“I had to hone down my ability to express it only in words.”
— David Leisner, 28:29
Leisner describes drawing on decades of teaching when writing the book. An idea that can be demonstrated in a room has to become understandable to a reader who cannot immediately ask a follow-up question.
His experience of teaching when he could not demonstrate at the instrument made verbal clarity particularly important. Explaining an action in words exposed assumptions that a live demonstration might have hidden.
Photographs and companion videos provide another form of explanation. The interview contains physical demonstrations that cannot be fully reconstructed from the audio alone. For those details, the book’s visual material and individual teaching context matter.
Begin with a musical image before solving every detail
“One I call soul work and the other is analytical work.”
— David Leisner, 45:36
Leisner describes two complementary kinds of practice: “soul work” and analytical work. The first involves an initial encounter with the music’s character, mood and phrasing. The second addresses the details needed to realise that impression.
The sequence matters. If a student settles every fingering before considering the phrase, a convenient physical solution may quietly determine the musical result. An early sense of the line supplies a reason to choose one solution over another.
That first impression need not be final or complete. You might begin by hearing the direction of one phrase, singing its melody or noticing a change in character. Detailed work can then refine the impression rather than displace it.
Analysis becomes useful when it answers a specific problem
The practical discussion includes changing rhythms, isolating the right hand and examining relationships between positions. These are ways of making one aspect of a passage easier to observe.
A practice method is most useful when you know what you are testing. Separating a hand might reveal an uneven rhythm; looking at a position change might expose an unnecessary movement. Repetition alone does not explain which part of the task needs attention.
Choose a small musical unit and one question. After trying a method, return to the original passage and listen for a difference. That return is essential: success in an isolated exercise needs to carry into the music.
Return to the musical idea after the technical work
The two kinds of work form a continuing conversation. Having solved a technical problem, Leisner returns to the musical image and considers it again. A new possibility in the hands may reveal a new expressive choice.
This prevents practice from ending with a list of repaired details. The final question remains whether the passage communicates its character and whether the parts belong together.
A useful closing step is to play a short section once with attention on the line and direction. Record a note about what you hear. That gives the next practice session a musical starting point as well as a technical one.
Ideas to take into your own music
These prompts are reflections on the conversation, rather than a routine prescribed by the guest.
- Bring a specific passage to a teacher: explain the difficulty and demonstrate it.
- Imagine the phrase first: identify its character before finalising every fingering.
- Give an exercise a purpose: name the problem it is meant to reveal or resolve.
- Return to the whole: listen for expression after working on the details.
Original episode notes and resources
The original introduction and resources are retained below. Any time-sensitive announcements belong to the episode’s publication period.
David Leisner has authored a book entitled Playing With Ease : A Healthy Approach to Guitar Technique and it draws upon his extensive experience and investigations into body mechanics and guitar playing.
David shares a number of insights in this interview but if you would like to read more from his book you can purchase it from:
Developing an understanding of how our body can best interact with our instrument is not only crucial for a healthy and long life in music but it will also remove obstacles that might be impeding our playing.
I hope you enjoy this conversation with David Leisner!
Hi Simon,
Good to have the opportunity to hear a new approach to practice from a global heavyweight. Always very enlightening to hear how others have managed to make their own way by finding a different approach along with mentoring for the global classroom.
Well done.
Cheers
Bill Gifford
Thanks, Bill. Glad you enjoyed it and yes I agree it is great to hear different approaches.
Thank you Simon for sharing this very insightful podcast. The advice of David will be particularly useful to me who has just undergone surgery of my cervical spine. My situation worsened because of bad postures. When I’ll get back to my guitar practice soon, I’ll certainly pay particular attention to all these useful pieces of advice. By the way, I’ve ordered the book which will be another useful companion. Thank you again.
Hi Joy,
Glad to hear that it might be useful but of course, I am sorry to hear of the situation with your spine!
Thanks for joining us the other night.
Excellent podcast.
So then I listened to David’s playing – and ordered Playing with Ease immediately.
Thank you David.
Thank you Simon.
Great! I hope you enjoy the book.
Hi Simon
Only recently started learning to play the guitar.As one who has practiced Tai Chi for many years huge benefits can had in keeping the mind and body relaxed and removing tension,and one can enjoy playing the guitar.
Kind regards
Cipriano
Hi Cipriano,
Thank you for the comment, yes I can imagine that Tai Chi would have a wonderful effect on the body.
That was definitely a much different approach to guitar, and in a way very refreshing to hear. Very excellent interview with great questions that really explored the topic. Classical guitar rarely gets anything new and exciting like this; and now we have a great inside look! Thank you Simon!
Very interesting podcast. I agree entirely about the importance of relaxation, which is something that took me many years to work out. None of my teachers even mentioned this – even though it’s vital. Eliminating tension in the body is the key to doing anything well, which IMO means letting the subconscious mind take over. Tension (like facial grimaces) occurs when the conscious mind starts trying to tell the body what to do – which never works. Experiments using brain monitoring have shown that people who are learning to do something use a different part of the brain (the conscious mind) to when they’ve learnt how to do it (the subconscious mind). It’s the subconscious mind that knows what to do when you’ve learnt how to do it and the trick is to prevent the conscious mind interfering. That’s when you forget what note to play or hook your tee shot into the lake.
That’s why I’m a bit wary of over-analysing the mechanics of playing the guitar – or anything for that matter. I also wonder if David is “over-medicalising” the various problems that people have playing the guitar. I wasn’t even aware of the condition of focal dystonia but it does match a condition that I have in my right hand when the third finger (especially) tends to retract towards the palm – very annoying. Maybe I’m wrong but I just think this is a bad habit that I’ve acquired because of tension rather than a neurological condition.
However it’s a very interesting podcast and it’s given me a few things to resolve.
Just back from a walk and listening … Very helpful and interesting podcast. Thank you, Simon and David. When I was younger, I ran into quite a few of my fellow guitarists and a few lutenists who had practiced themselves into physical incapacity. No one knew much about what was going on, on the somatic level. Methods like Rolfing and Feldenkrais and Alexander were just hitting the discussion. Jump forward a few decades, and the somatic approach is now quite well in the discussion. David’s insights will help spread the wisdom. But I also think that in order to truly benefit from the insights one needs to practice something like Tai Chi, proper yoga (David is right: I know lots of people who injured themselves with a bad teacher), Aikido, or any meditative somatic discipline that guides attention to the body and breath in a centering way. Being with the guitar will be better, in my experience. Also, fascinating discussion of the left hand mechanics — in particular thoughts about the “heavy left arm” method of laying weight on the fretboard as opposed to what David describes.
Simon, thank you for doing this podcast. Having had many friends have to stop their classical guitar studies due to various arm injuries, I’m aware of how important it is to use the body in a manner that is conducive to playing with ease and am always eager to try and improve my own approach to this important topic. I just purchased the book and look forward to learning from David Leisner’s forty years of experience, personal and otherwise, investigating this arena. Also congratulations to you for the photography work!
Thank you for this podcast, Simon. I ordered the book and look forward to studying David’s work.
What a great interview. It’s so interesting to me that David said the first place that shows tension is in the face…when I review my own videos for submission to CGCA I first close my eyes and just listen. During the second listening when I let myself view the video I’m alwasys noticing that I am pursing my lips or my eyebrows are arching etc. and say to myself, “why are you making that face?” Now I know. I have ordered the book and look forward to more revelations. Thank you Simon and David. JR
This book sounds like it was written specifically for me. Ordered! Great interview Simon.
Wonderful interview! I have heard of David Leisner’s experience with focal dystonia and how he cured himself. His book must be full of sound advice and very valuable information – I just purchased it and look forward to reading as soon as it arrives.
About those meet-ups you mention In the introduction to the podcast Simon – the community at Classical Guitar Corner is truly special and members have met at various locations in the U.S. But don’t forget those “mini meet-ups” abroad…in Germany for example. It’s great to meet members in person wherever possible.