In this lesson
Bret Williams, host of Classical Guitar Insider, joins Simon Powis for a candid conversation about the people behind classical guitar performances. Williams had previously interviewed Simon and encouraged him to begin this podcast, making the discussion part of the story of Classical Guitar Corner itself.
The interview moves from podcasting to education, teaching, creative work and the meaning of success. The two musicians do not agree on every point. That exchange is part of its value: this is a record of their experiences and questions at the time, rather than a universal description of musical careers.
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Originally published in 2016. These listening notes draw on the recorded conversation. Roles, projects, releases and event announcements refer to the time of recording. Practical reflections are suggested applications, not additional quotations from the guest.
Explore the conversation
Use these approximate timestamps to jump to a topic in the recording.
- 4:59 — An interview can reveal the person behind a performance
- 14:06 — A musical contribution is not measured only by international recognition
- 19:23 — Preserving a tradition and making room for new work
- 28:18 — Education has artistic value as well as practical consequences
- 44:48 — Teaching and listening communities are part of the musical life
- 62:14 — A musician can have an identity beyond the instrument
An interview can reveal the person behind a performance
“an archive of the actual personalities within our industry”
— Bret Williams, 9:46
Williams describes learning to speak comfortably on a microphone through earlier podcast projects. For Classical Guitar Insider, he wanted conversations that went beyond announcing a performer’s latest release or repeating a professional biography.
His interest was in the personalities and experiences within the guitar community. A recording could preserve the humour, uncertainty and individual perspective that a press photograph or list of achievements might leave out.
For a listener, that changes the reason to explore an interview. The value need not depend on whether you already know the guest’s recordings. Another musician’s way of thinking can help you ask new questions about your own relationship with music.
A musical contribution is not measured only by international recognition
Williams recalls a conversation that made the work of a regional performer feel particularly meaningful to him. His point is that musicians outside the international touring circuit still have something to create and communicate.
Simon brings a related question into the discussion: who does a musical project help or serve? Their conversation shifts attention from a general desire to be recognised towards a particular audience or community.
For an amateur guitarist, that audience might be a few friends, a local group or a duet partner. A small setting does not remove the need to prepare, listen and communicate. It can provide a concrete reason to work on music that matters to you.
Preserving a tradition and making room for new work
Williams argues for more opportunities for original music and for guitarists working beyond the familiar solo recital. Simon responds by considering the audiences that guitar societies already serve and the practical reasons for their programming.
The disagreement opens a useful question about responsibility. Should an existing institution change its approach, or should musicians create another place for different work? The conversation explores both possibilities without resolving every tension.
The lesson for a project can be modest: define what is distinctive about the music and who might want to hear it. That is a more useful starting point than assuming every venue or listener wants the same programme.
Education has artistic value as well as practical consequences
Both speakers discuss the cost of musical education and the gap they perceive between training and the work available afterwards. Williams calls for broader preparation, while Simon emphasises the lasting value of concentrated study and immersion in a musical community.
It is important to hear those ideas together. The conversation does not reduce education to an income calculation, but it also does not treat an artistic education as a guarantee of a particular career.
For someone considering further study, the questions raised here are worth taking to teachers and graduates: what will you learn, what experiences will you gain, and what kinds of work are you preparing to undertake? The financial figures and employment examples in the recording belong to its original period.
Teaching and listening communities are part of the musical life
Williams recognises amateur guitarists as an important part of the audience supporting performers and podcasts. He also talks about becoming more engaged with teaching and recognising it as a substantial part of his own work.
Later, Simon considers how a teacher’s influence may reach further than the teacher ever sees. A lesson or performance can matter to someone even when its effects are not immediately visible to the musician who offered it.
For listeners, this is a reminder that participation takes several forms. Learning, attending, listening closely, sharing a useful resource and encouraging another player all contribute to a musical community. Performing professionally is only one way of belonging to it.
A musician can have an identity beyond the instrument
“I don’t define myself by my guitar anymore.”
— Bret Williams, 63:23
Towards the end of the interview, Williams describes the many roles involved in sustaining his work and his wish for aspects of life outside music. He speaks about friendships and ordinary interests as part of who he is, rather than treating the guitar as a complete definition of himself.
That reflection sits alongside an affirmation that he enjoys aspects of his life and continues to create. The candid frustrations in the conversation should not be mistaken for a single, settled verdict on everything music has given him.
For a student, a useful question is what place you want the guitar to have in your life. Your answer can include serious study and ambitious goals while still allowing other relationships and interests to matter. It can also change over time.
Ideas to take into your own music
These prompts are reflections on the conversation, rather than a routine prescribed by the guest.
- Listen for the person: explore an interview for its perspective as well as its professional achievements.
- Identify your audience: think about whom you want to share music with and why.
- Recognise local contributions: teaching, small performances and community participation have value.
- Keep expectations specific: distinguish what a course or project offers from what you hope it will lead to.
- Define your own musical life: allow room for ambition, enjoyment and interests beyond the guitar.
Original episode notes and resources
The original introduction and resources are retained below. Any time-sensitive announcements belong to the episode’s publication period.
Bret Williams is a classical guitarist with a story. A story that he shares twice a month on his engaging podcast: Classical Guitar Insider.
Bret was actually the first person to get me interested in the podcasting medium and he has done a wonderful job of uncovering the personalities behind the instruments. After more than 80 episodes I sat down and talked to Bret about his show and audience. It didn’t take too long, however, until we started delving into the complex topic of sustaining a life in music. Bret talk candidly and with experience about the reality of living a life in classical music. The joys and the frustrations that are part of a lifelong vocation.
Thanks to Bret for coming on the show. If you would like to find out more, and tune in to his podcast (highly recommended) you will find all the information at:
http://www.bretwilliamsmusic.com/
Hey Simon,
That was one of the most enjoyable podcasts that I’ve heard in a long time. You and Bret have such a wonderful synergy that I almost wish that both you hosted the same podcast. Bret is a wonderful interview, and it was so refreshing to hear him be so candid about the ups and downs of being a classical musician or just a musician in general. I am one of those 40 something amateurs that Bret mentioned during the podcast, and listening to both of your podcasts is both highly informative and as well as entertaining. Hats off to you both for putting so much time and effort into what I feel are very worthwhile endeavors.
Thanks, Wilson. I too felt there was something special here and it turned into more of a conversation rather than an interview. Bret and I are friends so perhaps we will do some more collaborations in the future.
I listened to this podcast with great joy. As a chemist who I am, it was very interesting for me to take a lock inside the life of a musician – the ups and downs and the unique priceless”intellectual currency” which gives so much satisfaction.
thank you for providing this podcast for us!
Greetings
Jan
Hi Jan, you are very welcome and I am glad to have given you a little insight. Everyone has their own story but I think there are a lot of truths in this conversation. See you in the seminars!
Great podcast! As someone with an MFA who would not do it over again, I found it really interesting to hear the honesty and candidness that Bret provided. All in all I like the educational podcasts a little more, even though I barely understand what they’re about! ;-)
Simon, listening to this episode was a beautiful experience. It was the most honest account I’ve heard in a long time, it felt like a raw poem, a stolen gaze at a life I was this close to choose long ago. Thank you and thanks to Bret.
Great talk, very honest and down to earth. I have long thought that an international career does not have to do with talent alone. There are so many excellent “regional” guitarists out there and yet only a few become well known enough to earn a living by being on stage. Must it also have to do with marketing or even with just luck? Luck meaning being – or playing – in the right place at the right time to be “discovered”.
Thanks to both of you for these interesting insights for all of us amateur players.
Thank you Simon and Bret. A wonderful podcast. Honest, raw and heartfelt. As a 50 + amateur player with a day job, and a family, I look at you guys and occasionally think ,”Wow, I wish I could have a life like that!”. However, I am so grateful for having the life I do have especially with people like yourself continuing to inspire me and thus contribute to my life being what it is! Thank you for those ‘ripples’, Simon.
This was a very raw podcast. My spouse recently got her BA in flute performance and not once did the school really note to the students in her curriculum that there was little chance for a sustainable “career” in music. Also, the caliber of students in her program was similar to what was noted in the podcast with few hotshots if nay. It is sad times indeed but what is really different now than it ever has been in the music industry? Starving or struggling musician is not a new term by far. I agree that in the music business one has projects – it is also like that in the life of technologists as there are no guarantees for a career in anything except undertaking and sanitation.
To add to Mark’s comment…perhaps undertaking and tall collectors?
oops…TAX collectors
Interesting topic that applies to thousands.
I was fortunate to have a long enjoyable career as an engineer. While working as an engineer I spent years attending art schools to learn drawing/painting. The schools I attended did not issue diplomas but were taught by painters who mostly made a living painting. Nearly all needed to supplement their income via teaching. I remember drawing from a model one class and asking the woman next to me why she was taking this class. She replied she had recently received a BA in “Studio” art from one of the University of California campuses. When she applied for work at Disney Studios they told her she needed to learn to draw. Thus she had a degree that should have indicated skill in a field that would have a basic requirement of drawing but couldn’t draw. One has to give careful consideration when choosing a career in any of the arts whether to spend the very large sums for an academic degree or to invest considerably less and learn the actual skills necessary to produce art. A firm looking for an illustrator would not ask to see a diploma. They want to see your drawings. “Oh, well I only do stick figures but I do have this MA degree from Harvard, will that do?”
For a short period I took guitar lessons from a USC classical guitar PhD student. At the same time my daughter was in the USC school of medicine. The tuition was about the same for both students. Although now carrying a serious burdensome debt, as a physician, my daughter will be able handle the payments (and after 10 years of working for non profit hospitals – the remainder of the loan is to be forgiven). I wonder how difficult it will be for a classical guitarist to pay back $200K+ in loans?
The teaching model you are now developing can be the equivalent of the atelier art schools where students learn from a master. They don’t get a degree, but learn a skill to make a living at art.
I think you are on track to be of great benefit to many students. Even if few ever make a penny from performing, many will have an enhanced life. Drawing, painting, sculpting, music can give moments of great satisfaction and joy. Of course they also bring many hours of frustration and almost no one wants to help pay for your joy or frustration.
Thanks for that interview and level of candidness. How interesting that in 2020-21 we all got a chance to discover where we fit in, what with everyone labeled as non-essential, essential and heroes.